Written by | Posted September 8, 2015 – 9:51 pm Descent and Ascent

It didn’t take long to get from Thunder Bluff to the Echo Isles – Ankona took advantage of a wyvern so she could think and plan before getting to her destination. She had information to confirm with the spirits – was Gromnor dead? Was he really in the northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms, somewhere […]

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Tanking Perceptions
comment 33 Written by on March 15, 2010 – 7:00 am

(You knew it was coming. This is a rant.)

Dear Heroic LFD Puggers:

Let me explain to you some things. First, the defense cap for heroics is 535. With 535 defense, you are uncrittable in a heroic, and it’s quite possible to tank them with less than 535 defense anyway. (The defense cap for raids is 540. We’re not pugging raids. We’re pugging heroics. And I have 563 defense anyway, so shut up.)

Heroics are, right now, easier than they have ever been.

Many of them have been nerfed. Some of them have been nerfed A LOT. Let me refresh your memory a leeeetle bit about things from a year ago, when there were not badge epics and Tier 9 the way they are now, and before the heroics had been nerfed:

  1. Unbuffed 21k armor, 21k health and 32% dodge+parry is a good target for entry-level Naxxramas. (from Tankspot)
  2. This guy, who at 565 defense and less than 25K armor is agreed to be geared to MT/OT Naxxramas (though he should get 25K if he wants to PUG it) (from the WoW Forums)
  3. 23637 health and 21661 armor unbuffed now, 555 defense – “solidly for heroics” (From our friend the Panzercow)

So our friend the Panzercow takes the most conservative stance of the three, but last I checked, Tankspot is a pretty reliable resource for what is and isn’t acceptable for tanking. Looking at Annie’s armory profile, I have around 27K health, 24K armor, and 563 defense. My other avoidance stats aren’t so amazing (about 40% Dodge+Parry), but I’m working on it.

By any measurement that I can find on The Internets, a year ago I would have been OK tanking in a Naxxramas 25 man raid.

Let me repeat: I am not tanking raids. I am tanking heroics.

So when we pull into H-Nexus, sure, your Tier 10, frost badge, epic’d out the ass DPSy self might have to hold back a bit for me to tank it. And maybe the geared out the arse healer might have to pay attention a little on tough pulls. And no, I can’t pull the whole place at once. But if you will take THREE DEEP BREATHS, we can successfully beat this place. And, considering you have to wait 15 minutes for your next random dungeon, probably in less time than it will take for you to sit on your arse in Dalaran for 15 minutes and re-queue and then wait through the DPS queue again.

Making fun of me, telling me my gear sucks, bitching about having to “carry a tank with your healing”, playing like a total idiot, pulling things ahead of me, DPSing whatever the hell you feel like targeting just because you can? Solves nothing.

I know I’m not Tanking’s Gift To The World. I scrub it up, sometimes stand in it, accidentally miss pats, and sometimes forget to use Vigilance.

But I can tank.

And if you’ll give me half a minute’s chance, I can pretty much chain pull these dungeons (that aren’t ICC of course) and we’ll pwn and get our badges and get on with our lives.

Get over yourself already.


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33 Responses to “Tanking Perceptions”

  1. I would heal you and not the dps. Having a tank who thinks a little, paces things and does not charge blindly about would be a dream for me. Sure I may be epixxxed out and more than capable of healing, but I don’t like to be rushed. I actually like to loot – I make gold my repair bills for my raiding that way. I took up tailoring and get extra cloth that way. I like to look about a bit, usually because I am lost or totally forgotten that I’ve done the instance before. I don’t know which mobs I can skip and like to enjoy an instance rather than steam train my way through it. I can totally feel your pain and will heal you through it any day 🙂

  2. Amen to that… People like the ones you described are the reason I don’t have the guts to tank or heal pugs anymore… Which makes me a sad warrior/shaman…

  3. I will heal Annie Mae anytime, any place. On any of my three healers. You’ll have to wait from time to time while the druid drinks, but I will heal you. I’ll even engage in some random RP with you while we do it.

    I don’t understand how anyone thinks it helps to berate people in a LFD group.

  4. One of the things that drives me CRAZY in my little tankadin experiment (level 47 and counting) is people who feel I am not “pulling fast enough” so take it upon themselves to pull. Before I make a pull, I quickly assess a) mana, b) did everyone get a moment to loot*, c) do we have our stuff together, and d) is there a pat coming I should wait for (roughly speaking).

    When they pull because I am not “fast enough” (we’re talking like a couple of seconds for me to make this call), they are preventing these important judgments from taking place. It makes me want to tear my hair out. ESPECIALLY when these mobs I am “not pulling fast enough” are bosses. Or especially when I’M the one OOM. Yeah…you’ll have the consecrate in juuuuuuust a second, buddy. (Thankfully doesn’t happen very much on Experiment #1 at this point, but Experiment #2 on Feathermoon, so I could play with my guild, is only level 20 and still gets this a lot.)

    Additionally, at the heroic level, have you noticed the people who complain about there never being enough tanks are the same people who refuse to run with any tank (or healer) who can’t flat-out carry their bums through a 5-man? HMMM.

    *As my main is a healer this is my PET peeve. I NEED that farking loot to pay my bills and maybe earn a little profit from the run. When the tank is half dead from pulling three groups at once the next room over while I’m still waiting to auto-loot my one sparkly mob (and I NEED auto-loot on because of these kinds of tanks), I’m sorry Mr. Tank, but you are pulling too fast. I don’t care what your gear is or what my gear is, I have the same right to loot as everyone else, and if you are pulling at a rate that denies me that right, you are going too fast. /end rant.

    By Lilivati on Mar 15, 2010 | Reply
  5. @Lili – “Additionally, at the heroic level, have you noticed the people who complain about there never being enough tanks are the same people who refuse to run with any tank (or healer) who can’t flat-out carry their bums through a 5-man? HMMM.”

    THIS. ^

  6. @Nahyomi – I’ve been meaning to ask you for the names of your healers… ’cause I don’t know or haven’t spelled them properly. I’ve looked for you with no avail, and I think that means I fail at spelling!

  7. Thank you, thank you, thank you. ^_^

  8. Bitsy and i will deeps for you anytime. I hate PUGging heroics for badges; though it does remind me daily how well-balanced TRI is, this is the only time I have to abide with tards. Thankfully I’m usually the “Tier 10, frost badge, epic’d out the ass DPSy ” one there, but I usually take the opportunity to show the other tards what a “lolarpee” realm can deliver in terms of deeps. Much <3

    By Belphzooka on Mar 15, 2010 | Reply
  9. Nahyomi the paladin with the spinning pigtails, Rheyna the priest, and Ljanna the blue-haired druid. If you need an elemental shaman for anything, her name is Katyaa.

    The only time I ever see you online, Aely is in a raid 😉

  10. Did H-HoS last night on my ICC-25-capable priest, with my Boomkin friend. We wanted an easy two badges. I looked at our warrior tank: 22-23K. That’s the only stat I looked at; it told me all I needed to know. Similarly, my boomkin friend saw what I saw. Here’s what we both knew immediately: I’d have to heal, and she’d have to hold back.

    We did. I died twice: Once because the boomkin & I weren’t paying enough attention to where the adds were on the 1st boss; the second because the boomkin shadow-melded to reduce threat…and the add decided to swat me instead. (She apologized profusely, and we had a good laugh.)

    The tank did just fine; the other DPS weighed in at about 25% each (the boomkin did around half). No one else died (the hunter came close a couple times, but I was aware of when he was about to get in trouble).

    I almost prefer that sort of set up: I wasn’t bored out of my mind (as I am in a group of raid-ready guildies), we got through without any wipes, and gosh…maybe it took us 20 minutes instead of 15.

    The key is, however, the tank knew his limitations, and also didn’t look at the boomkin and myself and figure he could try to be superman.

  11. Amen to that. I’m an up-and-training BearTank who started grabbing gear for it around lvl 70 or so. the early Nexus/UK instances were fine.
    However, since I hit 78 I’ve gotten more and more lvl 80s in the mix. The fact that some of them are full t10 and start blasting the second I charge in, and then complain LOUDLY that I can;t taunt off them every 3 seconds is frustrating. I now have a macro “Tank in training – please wait for a swipe before unleashing your OMGWTFBBQ DPS. I will taunt from you if needed, but repeated pulls will make our healer hate you. Won’t someone think of the Healers?!”

    This usually gets people to pace themselves a bit, and I haven’t had a healer get insulted yet. Seems to break the ice and lighten the mood without being rude about it. 🙂

    I fear heroics for this very reason, since I’ll be dinging 80 this week.

    By Maebius on Mar 15, 2010 | Reply
  12. @Nahyomi – >.> yeah, Aely raids three nights a week right now (M/Th/F), so if she’s online, she’s either raiding or RPing. I’m fighting the burnout bug a bit, so I’ve not been doing as much, or it’s been at odd hours. Also, my best friend is very nearly ready to deliver her first baby, so my time spent knitting > time spent pugging lately XD Hopefully I’ll be back on a more normal schedule soon.

  13. /jumps on the healer-train

    I would be more than happy to have my druid Alanón play pocket-healer. He really needs the badges, but my phobia of chain-pulling, verbally abusive tanks (or dps!) usually keeps me out of the queue.

    Or if you’re set on healers, Pitch or Arvoss could tag along. That’d be one less dps you’d have to worry about as well.

    @Maebius- This is why I haven’t tried tanking on Pitch in a PUG. I -think- he has the gear for it, but the last time he tanked (at level 74), it was a mad scramble for threat the entire run. Which I failed at for the most part. And this was with people I knew, so at least I didn’t get yelled at. In a PUG? I don’t even want to think about it. >.>

  14. I can really only echo what Sephrenia and Nahyomi said. 😀 I have a feeling that, as a healer, tanks whose mains are healers are probably the most relaxing to heal!

  15. I hate people like that so much. I don’t understand why they think that sort of attitude is OK!! They should be forced to swap places with the person they make fun of for a day and run randoms, just to be made to understand how completely STUPID they sound. I recently dinged 80 on a priest, and I’d like to try healing, but I’m terrified of this mentality, so I keep putting it off. If we were in the same battlegroup I’d MD for you any day on my hunter! 😀

    By Carrie on Mar 15, 2010 | Reply
  16. Yeah I actually wrote about a good heroic in my last post. And it started like most do, most good ones anyway, quiet. No one says anything. I know it is going to be smooth, because we have been berated by the stupid. Keep your head down so it doesn’t get knocked off.

    A good DK tank who turned out to be in blues. I was so impressed I complimented her on her skills, during a boss fight. She then told the group she was in blues. I was shocked. I healed/ tanked in H PoS to get her some extra badges. (It came up as a random, my fault probably.) I let her tank everything she could, and healed her through it. It was fun, people were polite, and even helpful. Man if more pugs were like this I would tank them again. I don’t mind an “undergeared” tank, it makes the 5 man more fun instead of the snore fest it usually is.

    As it stands now, maybe in H HoR I will get asked to switch out because the tank has too much health for this to be a problem. (Undergeared stam stacker usually, don’t do that until at least 4 piece of tier or equivalent.) I reply with “No I am a healer, I don’t have a Ret Spec. Feel free to kick me if you need to.” Then I get berated for not having a dual spec. I don’t bother to correct them. I don’t lie to them I merely let them believe what they want to, because no one would be stupid enough to level Holy.

    Except I did. How do I do my dailies? “Holy has good burst.” The only 5 man I really struggle with at this point is H HoR. And I can tank ToC and ICC 10. My guild is up to Saurfang, but we don’t have the dps yet. I am pretty sure I can tank anything I want to, but I am not doing it for lfd jerkwads anymore.

    And the tanking `shortage’ continues. I will gladly heal you though. <3

  17. I have 4 tanks and 2 healers… Been there, done that, seen most of the crap. Am sorely tired of it.

    On my bear and warrior, yes, my gear exceeds my skill… because I ground the sets dpsing or running with guildies only before charging into randoms… because otherwise I get screamed at. Well heck, I still get screamed at.

    However, zoning in on my dk tank – 4 piece t10, 50k health buffed, and getting a “OMG DK TANK!!! YOU SUCK!” *drop group* before I’ve even hardly stepped into the instance gets tiring. As is assuming I’ll have pally level aoe threat… So, sadly, I’m reluctant to queue up my best toon in her primary role.

    Sore point with me that I get out of ICC25 after having downed Saurfang25 the first time and get razzed in a random because I can’t magically hold every mob in the 7 groups the hunter pulled for me [without misdirect] and that the warrior is bladestorming through before I’m even over to them. I get told they don’t need me “we dnt need tank”, so I go sit in Dalaran with my healer friend [who JUST hit 80 – so her mana regen was a bit low] and get screamed at to “come tank this mf’n instance”.

    I take abuse from mobs, not other players.

    And they wonder why there’s a tank shortage.

  18. *shakes head* And people wonder why no-one wants to tank these days 🙁

  19. I can only echo what pretty much everyone else has said here — attitudes like this are why I do not queue up in the LFD system as a tank. I’m solidly geared for tanking heroics on my pally, and while I’m certainly not the most skillful player in the world, I can do my job reasonably well — or I can in a group with people who are willing to let me go at my own speed and not heap abuse on me for my lack of uber-leetness.
    I’ve healed random LFD groups a few times and that was a pretty mixed bag, too (had one DPSer scream at me to “stop healing yourself and heal us”… ‘cuz I’ll do so much better at healing after I let myself die, right?). I’m just not willing to subject myself to that sort of garbage when it comes to tanking.
    So yeah, to all the DPS out there who suffer through the lack of tanks (and healers) in the LFD system and the long wait to fill those two crucial roles? You can do your part to remedy the problem by making sure to set a good example and treat your fellow party members with respect. And that goes even for the people who may not be all that skilled — I know it’s frustrating to group with someone who obviously doesn’t know what they’re doing (believe me, I’ve been there), but I don’t care how bad a player is, it’s never okay to be outright rude and abusive to anyone. It’s one thing to politely tell a player if there’s something they need to be doing differently, but namecalling and general unpleasantness? That’s just not cool, ever. (Like the human female I am IRL, my turn-offs are rude people, mean people, and people who aren’t nice.)
    And if anyone on FM ever needs a tank or a healer, Yelgah and her braids of prot/holy fury are usually game for just about anything.

    By Corise on Mar 15, 2010 | Reply
  20. People like this rank right up with the idiots obsessing over gearscore.

    Feel free to ninja Windstar or Arien if you need a non-elitist dps/heals, any time I’m on.

  21. And this is why I only tank with my guildies. I am not the perfect tank, but I know the role and can perform what’s needed for heroics. My main pally’s 1st spec is tanking, but I just started piecing together a ret set to pug with for badges. Other than that I pug with my dk and lock. When will they learn that tanks gear up and study their specs and work their rotations in order to take damage FOR the group, not nonsense FROM the group.

  22. As someone who plays DPS all the time, if I DIE cause I pulled aggro from the tank and blowing cooldowns fails, that means *I* failed, not the tank. This is more relevant on my mage, because he has basically no way of dropping threat if Ice Block is on cooldown. I will say that stuff like this makes me nervous to make a tankadin, not knowing wtf I’m doing.

    By Parsi on Mar 16, 2010 | Reply
  23. My worst problem as a tank in LFD lately has been that I usually end up, somehow, at the top (or 2nd) on the dps chart. And it’s not because I’m a pally smacking around undead in CoS, I’m a warrior and it happens everywhere. Now I don’t normally mind helping out those with less gear, but when the one person in the group is berating me because I refuse to pull everything in sight just so he can see all his pretty AoE numbers, but the shammy keeps targetting something random (so I’m constantly watching him so he doesn’t die) and the hunter is sitting at about 1400dps, I’m not likely to go “pull the next 4 mobs n boss lol cuz i wanna aoe.” I’m normally the silent tank, pulling steadily onward until someone’s low on mana or asks to stop. The key is “steadily” – not “breakneck.” I’ve been on multiple runs where I’ve been complimented on both my tanking and my pacing.

    And while I’m completely willing to run my tank solo, I tend to run my healer with my roomate’s tank – that way a)the line moves faster, b)she’s slightly undergeared, so having the tank sit behind me helps, and c)I don’t get yelled at for being undergeared because the tank is good enough to cover for my not-epic healer butt.

    By Karith on Mar 16, 2010 | Reply
  24. I used to fear the abusive groups as well, until I realized I have a very simple solution available- if a group is going to be abusive, mocking, or disrespectful of me as a player, I just leave. Short and sweet. Most groups out there are able to interact civilly with players, regardless of gear, experience, or skill so long as they receive the same treatment in return. I don’t mind constructive criticism- a few people taking my tank experiment aside has made me a much better tank- but if there’s no reason other than to bitch, imo they should keep it to themselves. As a healer and a tank, I’ll have near-instantaneous queues. They can have fun waiting another 15-20 min, and maybe they’ll treat their next member better. I really feel that this is not something I am doing to them to “punish” them, but a decision they made when they chose to behave in this fashion. Just because most of their tanks/healers may put up with it doesn’t make it ok.

    By Lilivati on Mar 16, 2010 | Reply
  25. Great rant! I’ll bet there are a lot of tanks out there who feel the same way. These idiots with the mentality that “oooh, we’re at T10 level, so everyone should be geared up the wazoo or gtfo, and I just want to farm badges for epic gems”, aren’t welcome in any groups I take part.

    At the other end of the scale, tanks that zerg through in their ICC-25 gear and don’t allow enough time to loot get up my nose as well. Why can’t they slow down just a little, instead of streaming half the instance along, leaving corpses strewn everywhere and ignoring the fact that some of us actually want to be able to breathe and to loot said corpses.


  26. I feel ya on this one. Currently I just upgraded from 4/5t8 to badge t9 and this has to be one of my biggest irritations. The other one not letting me even hit the mob before it’s a full nuke. I’m a pala, yes I do put concecration down but when the healer says okay for me to pull, I pull. The dps gets over happy and pulls or MD’s the next one to me (forgetting the 3 other mobs) and shit hits the fan. RD+taunt+ bubble .. bam just lost threat …. yea you kinda see my point. It’s not cause I don’t know how to tank just give us a chance. Our spells, just as the dps’ have cool downs. We can only cast once every 1sec (min) besides the instants. Just take a few min and get a feel for the tank and healer. If they wanna ballz it, then pew pew away. If not just spend an extra few secs and keep it cool, it will go smoother than you would think.

    Then again we do have some overzealous tanks about:

    By lucént on Mar 18, 2010 | Reply
  27. Lol, not to be a prick, but you sound like the tank that loses mobs to heal aggro. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone to heal a heroic and the tank of your descrpition can keep mobs of the healer, they die and somehow, its not the tanks fault. Also, heroics are such a joke these days that you can tank them in full dps gear and spec, so stop making excuses for your inability to move beyond a turtles pace.

    By Sigh on Mar 18, 2010 | Reply
  28. What’s important to note too is that these frustrations don’t just apply to people new to tanking. I’m an extremely experienced and geared tank on my main, and have been MT’ing a strong raiding guild years. I’m so familiar with the mechanics, just from having spent all this time, that I tend to intuitively know exactly when people are about to pull aggro and who’s hitting what without even looking at the threat meter. Yet all of these frustrations still apply no matter how experienced you are, and no matter what class you’re playing.

    By Aristotle on Mar 18, 2010 | Reply
  29. I have a set of macro’s myself. They Identify me as
    1. An Alt and
    2. the Off-Spec of said alt.

    My gear 5K GS 38K unbuffed Health in tanking alt Spec is MORE then enough for any heroic including H-HoR. And still have people /cry about it. GS isn’t everything, I am gem’d and enchanted correctly at personal expense so I can tank for them.

    Here is a quote and the situation I got in a H-FoS run. I am running up the ramp to a pack of 5 mobs. As I do so I Drop DnD and pop unbreakable armor as it eases up on the healing for the melee mobs, I do it for the healer but it costs 2 GCD’s. Tank Totals is set to Emote that I just did so so it spams the emote. Right as I do this I see bullets/arrows flying over my shoulder and hear the Explosive shot sound effect on the mob NEXT to the one I have targeted. I hit howling blast to AE threat but the mob runs right by me. I choose to not taunt as the hunter did not MD to me nor did he give me chance to get anything other then a DnD in for threat. He obviously feels like kiting a mob for a bit. Huntard then FD’s and I grip the mob to me because now it has taken interest in the healer. Then comes the quote of the day.

    “Less mods, more threat…”

    How do you respond to an idiot like that?

    By WrathofNerzhul on Mar 18, 2010 | Reply
  30. Thank you for this. I remember starting 80 heroics a while back at 26k health and probably just over 535 def. Now at 47k (buffed), 568 def, etc., I usually heal instead on my pally to not have to deal with everyone’s crap. The thing that annoys me the most is when someone says ‘gogogogo’. Do you not think that I might be waiting on something (mana, pat, cd)?

    On a side note, when I pull aggro with my mage, I ice block and apologize to the tank (and healer if I really mess up). That is MY fault. I do NOT keep dps on the aggro’d mob so that it will turn back to me seconds after the taunt lands.

    From a dps and healing perspective, I am happy running with a ‘green’ tank. I will give suggestions if I think they will welcome them. The only caveat to this is a ‘fake tank’. Someone who clearly isn’t trying to learn or even wants to tank. They are just tanking for the quick queue to emblems.

    By Tar on Mar 18, 2010 | Reply
  31. ITT: The bottom 10% (being generous there) of wow players bitch about how people are mean to them.

    By RWJ on Mar 20, 2010 | Reply
  32. I’m one of those guys, sadly enough. lol I enjoy clearing a heroic in 10 minutes and getting the hell out of there. Why? Because I don’t want to sit in heroics for 30+ minutes after a YEAR of playing in them. I want my to get my badge and move on with life.

    We had a tank with 18k hp once thinking he was going to get carried, and instead, we booted him, invited another dps, and I tanked it as a tree. Heroics are so weak and underpowered, that a resto druid can tank and usually hold agro without dieing.

    Should people who are still gearing be ridiculed? Of course not. But are some entitled to quick runs? Sure. …I can join a horrible run, quit, eat the 15 minutes, then clear the next queue before the first group had even finished at points. Why do you think most people will bail from a CoS? Time is money.

  33. The sad thing is that I am an ICC 25, geared to the teeth Bear Druid and depending on the group make up I probably have on average around 61k health in a heroic. Yet I still see people doing to me exactly what they are doing to you. I chain pull 2 to 3 groups at a time and barely need any heals, yet before the last mob is down I often have some DPS or even the healer running up ahead and pulling the next group for me. This pisses me off to no end.

    My motto has been and always will be if you pull it (purposefully) you tank it. I will shadowmeld and watch you die. I also have people of equal gear to me that are just randomly targetting whatever they feel like targetting and pulling aggro on themselves when I’ve got 15 or 20 things attacking me. I can’t put out top TPS on a single target with that much crap on me so stop attacking whatever you feel like attacking and either just use some aoe or target what I’m targetting.

    By The Bear Tank on Mar 24, 2010 | Reply

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