Written by | Posted November 19, 2013 – 4:46 pm Deconstruction

Bad things are happening in Stormwind – and beyond.

The Hand of Lothar, they call themselves.

Yva Darrows was their first target.

Tirith and Aely were their second and third.

They have since… expanded their reach and escalated their methods …

filed under Raiding, Roleplay
Reader Question: Getting Griefed for Raiding?
comment Comments Off Written by on May 28, 2009 – 9:32 am

So I received the following email (sadly, longer ago than I care to admit) – and while I responded to it at the time, I wanted to expand on that response and turn it into a blog post – both because I felt like this should be addressed publically and because I think some of you might have good, creative, constructive replies as well.

Hi Anna,
Stumbled across your blog on wow ladies, always nice to see another RPer who raids.

In any case, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on a problem I’ve been running into for a bit…and one that has mostly killed my desire to RP.

Namely, being flamed, pseudo ICly insulted, or generally followed around and insulted for raiding. I’ve had several people from some of the larger RP guilds on my server do this, and I’m still uncertain about any viable IC ways to respond. It appears to be a jealousy issue, especially since I’ve heard comments from several of these people about how they need to start raiding so they have more epics.

But, I’m still rather lost on how to deal with the situation.

<Name Redacted>

This is apparently something of an ongoing problem, because this character (I’m making no assumptions male or female, because we know how well THAT goes) has asked me not to use their character name in order to not draw more griefing.

ANYway.

First, let me applaud you for working on RP and raiding together.  It’s tough – especially due to the climate you talk about – where people on one front seem to think it’s OK to deride or degrade people on the other, no matter how immature that reaction is.  Assuming that you’re not going around flaunting your epics (OMG GUYS LOOK AT MY NEW HAT! I’M SO LEET!), they have no right to give you heat for raiding.  On the same token, your raid mates have no right to give you heat for RPing unless you’re using RP as an excuse to suck – which I’m pretty sure you’re not, but since this is a blog post, I have to be all politically correct you know.

Always remember that – regardless of whether these folks are (so-called) good RPers – if they harass you, you should follow the ToS procedure for griefing.  Ask them to stop – take screenshots of what they say and of you asking them to stop – and if they don’t, you should put them on /ignore (even if it’s just temporarily) and report them to a GM.  Harassment is harassment, no matter who is doing it, and I have some issue with their credibility if they can’t understand someone raiding and RPing.  Regardless of the source, this part of the situation needs to stop, and who knows – a simple “I raid and I roleplay, and there’s nothing that says I can’t do both.  Please leave me alone” might solve the problem.

In keeping with the idea that nobody should deal with griefing, don’t hide your gear to get away from it. Face this one head on if you can.  Obviously, if you want to hang out in a tavern in tavern clothes, go right ahead.  But your gear is an accomplishment, just like your stories and in character interactions are accomplishments.  Just because they don’t give epics for storylines doesn’t mean that the epics you get for completing raid content are something you should be at all afraid of.  Someone else’s asshat behavior should not be grounds for you to be ashamed of your accomplishments (Thanks Linedan).

One thing that does strike me as odd about these folks who are hassling you is that they seem to be… well… behind the times a bit.

Raiding is no longer the bastion of 20+ hour a week commitments in guilds that throw you out if you’re late because you got in a car accident.  Random groups – that aren’t guild affiliated – can spring up and clear out Naxxramas on a very do-able schedule.  I raid three nights a week right now (2 nights for 25′s, 1 night for 10′s), and we’re working on Mimiron in both my 10 and 25 man raids.  That leaves FOUR WHOLE NIGHTS that I can devote to RP if I want – or whatever else I might want.

Have people from your raid, in the past, been openly hostile to roleplayers?

It does happen, and if you wear their guild tag, it’s going to make “breaking in” to the RP community difficult, as they’ll view you with some suspicion.  This might be a long-ago event, or something that happened well before you started raiding with them, but it’s probably worth at least a quick question to a friendly raid officer.  Roleplayers tend to be rather sensitive about the griefing issue, because it does happen frequently, so they can have long memories for stuff like that.  Once bitten, twice shy, as it were.

The other thing you want to make sure is that your RP style is one that “plays well with others”, so to speak, so that this particular group isn’t targeting you for raiding because of your RP style.  If your RP is self-centered, involves your always being the center of attention and a character who is so amazingly beautiful and perfect that she has no flaws but is still emo and sad and dejected all the time with moments of unbridled rage, a cat tail, a mechanical arm, angel wings, and vampire fangs – the other RP folks might be choosing to just “label” you as a clueless raider (as mistaken as that label might be) in order to justify not helping you work on your RP.  Also, if you’re using your raid-earned epics as a way to roleplay an undefeatably powerful character, that can be somewhat offputting as well.

I’m not saying that this is or is not the case – I know absolutely nothing about your characters or even what server you play on, but make sure that there’s not something weird going on like this.

As much as I harp on just “jumping in” to RP – there are definitely ways to put people off RPing with you.  Hopefully that’s not what’s going on right now.

Hopefully that puts the situation in perspective a little.  Regardless of what’s going on, you need to address the griefing.  And, if you can’t figure out what might be /drawing/ that griefing (other than your apparently noticable gear), just move on.  Sadly, some people find that being jerks to other people makes them feel validated in their own choices not to do something.  If these folks have some kind of insecurity about their gear, they might be taking it out on you as a way to “belittle” what raiders do and make themselves feel better.  Not a very mature reaction, but it happens.

So don’t let it get to you – but don’t overlook that there might be other factors going on here!  Good luck, happy RPing, and may the Loot-Fu be with you!

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No Responses to “Reader Question: Getting Griefed for Raiding?”

  1. Very wise advice indeed. I do believe you should start a WoW Advice Column.

    bricus last blog post..When All’s Quiet.

  2. @ Bricu -

    I’d love to do that, but I’d need more questions on a regular basis! (and would probably make you help XD)

    By Anna on May 28, 2009 | Reply
  3. From an RP standpoint, could one address it as their character leading the good fight, protecting loved ones, etc.? That would seem like solid footing to me.

    candys last blog post..What to Wear: a Shadow Priest’s Guide to 10-Man Ulduar

  4. @candy:

    There are about a million good reasons for a character to raid “in character” – from the crazed beserker to the healer who wants to help her friends, to any other reason. Unfortunately griefers (either RP or nonRP) don’t take the time to figure that out. Sometimes the best thing to do is to distance yourself from the people that are being nasty.

    By Anna on May 28, 2009 | Reply
  5. A group of friends and I moved to an RP server about a year ago, but we’re not really heavy RPers – if anything we’re heavy raiders, who happen to be on an RP server. Personally I like the RP environment, the way I get talked to by GMs, and the overall lower percentage of ‘idiots’ on the server. It seems like more attention is given to the social aspect, rather than the pure raiding – though this does make it tough to find raiders sometimes.

    We encourage RP in our guild, but very few do it. We actually host an occasional RP event (we had a candle party last month) – and strive to be more active in the RP communit.

    So I suppose that’s my question for you – as a guild leader, what are some good ways to break into the RP environment and embrace the RPness of our server? We don’t want to be known simply as the best raid guild – but the best guild period.

  6. @Adgamorix:

    I’d suggest checking out these two posts from Blogatelle:
    http://blogatelle.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/god-and-mammon-the-problem-with-hybrid-role-play-guilds/
    http://blogatelle.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/and-now-for-something-completely-different/

    To be honest – if you have a great raiding guild, and you encourage RP, my suggestion would be to seek out or start an in character chat channel – and not restrict it to guildmates. Publicise it if you can, but don’t change the focus of your guild. Doing both usually means that you end up with two guilds under one roof, and it can be really really tough. Even the Wildfire Riders, my guild, do not have “official guild raids” – we do raid, and many of us are part of Totally Raids – which is NOT a guild or affiliated with any guild – but trying to combine the two is really rough.

    If you want to encourage character development and “embracing” of RP, start by example! Maybe find a few of my Friday Five posts that will kick off some fun questions (the “What’s in your characters pockets” question is one of my favorites), or hold a little in-character tavern night to sit around and chat. But don’t force it on people. They may come around and love RP – and they may not. But being “RP positive” is a HUGE step in the right direction, and we need more raids like that!

    By Anna on May 28, 2009 | Reply
  7. “One thing that does strike me as odd about these folks who are hassling you is that they seem to be… well… behind the times a bit.”

    This was exactly my reaction. The time it takes to clear instances has been shortened pretty dramatically in Wrath. Now that 45 minutes of free time will get you through heroic Violet Hold, and all the others can be cleared in an hour or so, pretty much any fresh 80 can quickly build up good enough gear to at least hop the occasional pug into Vault of Archavon and Obsidian Sanctum. Naxxramus isn’t as tough as raids used to be, either, from what I understand. Many of the RPers on my realm also do some raiding, and many have taken a peek or two into Ulduar as well.

    The point is that raiding, and thus raiding loot, is much more accessible to non-”raider” types nowadays, so the presence of even epic level gear on a character isn’t clear evidence of being a jock at the proverbial geeks’ lunch table.

    By el ranchero on May 29, 2009 | Reply
  8. Is this a RP server only phenomenon? I’ve only ever played on a PVP server, but have quite a bit of interest in RPing and I’m certainly open to it.
    I just can’t imagine non-raiding characters making fun of raiding characters. Doesn’t that only work the other way around?
    I mean, what could they possibly say? “LOL YOUR GEAR IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN MINE LOLOLOL.”

    By Zelinda on May 29, 2009 | Reply
  9. @Zelinda:

    Unfortunately it’s a lot more passive aggressive sniping. “So I guess /you/ won’t be RPing anymore” or people being particularly nasty – you get a new mount and people start rumors about how you are abusing it and are this horrible person. It can be done both in and out of character, but it’s pretty vicious. And childish. It’s less about the gear and more about the idea that you’ve some how “crossed a line” and are “no longer a good RPer” or someone worth RPing with because you raid.

    It does go the other way though, with raiders using their amazing gear to browbeat others, rain on their storylines, and assume an air of moral and physical superiority because “I have epics”. Both are dumb :)

    By Anna on May 29, 2009 | Reply
  10. On another note, it’s not just those who RP who are reduced to flaming those who raid. It’s become quite the popular trend for those who arena to spit out “PVE NERD” on a regular basis.

    Apparently raiding doesn’t take skill?

    By Em on May 29, 2009 | Reply
  11. @Commenters:

    Just a quick reminder that if you leave joke emails and say personally inflammatory things to other commenters, I /will/ delete you.

    If it happens twice, I will block your IP.

    By Anna on May 29, 2009 | Reply
  12. This phenomenon is entirely new to me. I assume that plays on an RP server to begin with, but I’ve never even heard of this. Raiding and RP can coexist, and they can exist seperately… but I’ve never seen anyone openly flame someone else for raiding or RPing independently.

    Now, if you’re running around in Org /yelling leetspeak, that’s another story altogether…

    By Scott on May 29, 2009 | Reply
  13. It’s because Blizzard has focused so much time on raiding and things deemed less useful (like Arena’s) and ignored the main content for RPer’s, mainly, the lore and questing. They don’t add new questing content, just dailies, which add nothing to the lore.

    RPer’s have only seen their content torn down, lore destroyed, ripped apart, and generally crapped on. Frankly, Blizzard doesn’t give any reason for RPer’s to even play WoW. There’s no housing, no customization of looks (i.e. cosmetic clothing), and no advancement of the lore in a good way. Games like EQ2 and LotRO both seem like much better choices for RPer’s.

    So not sure why any would stay with WoW, it’s almost anti-RP. True RPer’s might want to look to games that will cater to them better, and treat them with respect.

    So if RPer’s are lashing out, this is why, they feel neglected, and with good reason. They should do the smart thing and move to a better RP game, because WoW has no RP value.

    By ScytheNoire on May 30, 2009 | Reply
  14. @ScytheNoire:

    That’s an interesting position to take on a blog that focuses at least half of its content on roleplay in WoW. And, while you are very much entitled to your opinion, some of us really do enjoy RP in WoW. Yes, there are things that make this game not “ideal” for RP. But there are people that truly enjoy the WoW lore – even when it changes. And what about those of us that Raid AND RP (like me?) – I get a lot of enjoyment out of both aspects of the game, and I think that RPers “lashing out” at other RPers is not something that’s caused by Blizzards supposed neglect of RP.

    Could Blizzard be handling things better? Probably. Does that mean that people have some kind of excuse to be jerks? Absolutely not.

    If you’re not sure why anyone would stay with WoW, you’ve obviously not found enjoyment of the game, and should happily move on to something you find more fun! But for those of us that DO enjoy the game, well, that’s why we’re working these things out.

    By Anna on May 30, 2009 | Reply
  15. @ScytheNoire

    Actually, with Wrath of the Lich King, they put a whole TON of lore back into questing for RPers. Just about every zone has had at least one or two questlines that were significant to my characters (and I play both horde and alliance. I didn’t find bias towards one side or the other).

    I guess I find my RP experience to be pretty much the opposite of yours. Did they leave a bit to be desired in BC lore? Sure — though, I’d argue that there was some excellent content for the orcs, with the Mag’har and the Greatmother quests, and the Kael’thas/Illidan quests (even if you didn’t see the Black Temple or Tempest Keep) were very important to a lot of the races. But with Wrath, I’d say they recognized where BC was lacking and made up for it.

    As to the lack of customized looks/clothing, sure, I’d love to be able to change heights and body shapes for my avatars (my female forsaken mage is supposed to be almost six feet tall and unhealthily thin), but the barbershop feature’s a good start.

    Customized clothing? Yeah, there are some armor sets I’d love to be able to dye (paladin tier 5 ohgodyuck), but that doesn’t mean there’s a dearth of outfits. It takes a little looking, sure, but you can come up with some excellent RP outfits by dedicating some time to the auction house and the dressing room feature.

    I definitely take issue with the idea that “true RPers” should look elsewhere. RP is about interacting with other people. It doesn’t matter what game system you’re playing — as long as the group you’re working with clicks together, you can find excellent RP anywhere.

    Say it with me, kids: RP doesn’t happen to you. It happens with you. I usually say that to people bemoaning the lack of other peoples’ efforts, but in this case, I think it applies to the suggestion that Blizzard’s ruining your immersion, too.

    Lamenting what’s missing doesn’t help. Finding a way to work your story around it does. An example: would Bricu and Aely love to be able to wear Lordaeron’s colors in the joust? Yes! Does it mean their players suddenly find that they can’t RP because that’s missing? NO! Bricu, ICly, ties a ribbon to his lance in Lordaeron’s colors as a form of protest. Sure, there’s no in-game mechanic that lets you see it, but the people who know him IC know he’s put it there because he mentions it and makes it part of his roleplay.

    There are definitely RP features I’d love to see Blizzard implement. Just because they haven’t doesn’t mean they won’t. And even if they don’t, I’m not willing to throw four years’ worth of my characters’ stories out the window just because LOTRO has player housing.

    I’m a true RPer. I find plenty of RP value in WoW, because I’ve found an excellent group of people to RP with, and because I don’t let what isn’t there hold me back.

  16. @Lauren:

    There’s so much truth in what you’re saying that I may hilight this as a post of its own. It deserves to be said more openly.

    That said – there’s an element of what Scythe said that I missed on my first read through his post.

    @ ScytheNoir:

    “True RPers”? If you have issue with my RP, the RP I post here, or the RP I guide people to start, Scythe, that’s fine, and I’m a big girl and I can take it – I’m sure we can have an enlightened argument about just what that means. However, this blog is a safe space for people that are not normally involved in RP as well as a place for “hardmode” RPers to hang out, and I get both types of readers and comments.

    Please refrain from insulting my readers if you’d like to continue this discussion.

    By Anna on May 30, 2009 | Reply
  17. I can’t imagine that people harass other for raiding. “Blessed Elune, you went into Naxxramas and killed Kel’Thuzad! Everlasting shame will fall upon you!”

    ??Wha? Taking down the bad guys and protecting the weak? Striving to become a legendary hero? That’s a bad thing?

    I don’t get it.

    By Stupid Mage on Jun 1, 2009 | Reply
  18. Oh, you did get to it. :) Thanks for all the answers.

    Personally…I actually tended to raid with some organized groups back in BC, so I wasn’t actually in a raiding guild. The PuGs just did, and still do go better than some people’s guild runs.

    My character is mainly just a tired old soldier who wears her Scryers tabard because it’s the only one she doesn’t have blood on and responds with “Which one?” when asked how the war is going.

    Perhaps one thing that offends people is she doesn’t go run around being scared of everyone’s special character, being more concerned about Kil’jaeden/Kel’Thuzad/Yoggy.

    By LFS on Jun 6, 2009 | Reply

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