Written by | Posted September 8, 2015 – 9:51 pm Descent and Ascent

It didn’t take long to get from Thunder Bluff to the Echo Isles – Ankona took advantage of a wyvern so she could think and plan before getting to her destination. She had information to confirm with the spirits – was Gromnor dead? Was he really in the northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms, somewhere […]

filed under Feature, Healing, Paladin
Seals, Judgments, and Holy Pally Handwaving
comment 16 Written by on August 18, 2009 – 5:46 am

I got a heads-up after my big 3.2 mana regen post that I’d missed a major source of regen that a fellow paladin, Nahyomi, had been using to good effect.

And then I went to test it out… and absolutely nothing happened.

So I was very puzzled.


Here’s the scenario:

  • Nahyomi was receiving a TON of regen from using Judgment of Wisdom regularly – every 6 seconds if possible.
  • When doing so, she was proccing what she called Seal of Wisdom, and was gaining back GOBS of mana – enough to not have to use Divine Plea nearly as often as previously.
  • The change to Judgments with 3.2 makes any Judgment have the same proc chance as any other ranged/melee attack to proc Seal of Wisdom.  Hence my utter confusion – and lack of available regen, since this was totally random and in NO way getting close to the kind of numbers that Nahyomi was talking about.

So there are a few options.  Nahyomi could be lying – but I highly doubt that. She could be seeing the greater mana longevity because she was using a GCD every six seconds to cast a Judgment – which costs less than a big heal. But she also had some concrete regen numbers from a webstats parse – so I decided to dig a little deeper, since in reality, this /should/ be based on Math and Numbers and Stuff Like That.

So I enlisted the help of The Amazing Macmoran (who is one of the best Paladins I know) to see what was up.  He was also summarily confused, but we did some testing anyway, and discovered that, amazingly enough, he WAS getting extra mana regen from Judging.  And I still definitely wasn’t.

/me scratches her head, puzzled.

So Mac respecced, dropped all of his talents, and tried again.  No regen other than the expected, random Seal of Wisdom procs from Judgments as normal attacks.

NOW we’re getting somewhere.

So he applied a few judicious talent points (10 in Retribution, just to get Heart of the Crusader) … and discovered that it wasn’t that Judgment of Wisdom was now proccing Seal of Wisdom – but that if he already had Judgment of Wisdom up on a target, and he Judged it again – which caused Heart of the Crusader to re-apply itself – not only would Seal of Wisdom proc, but the ORIGINAL Judgment would proc off the HotC proc.

Magic!  Double regen!

So we did some more tinkering.  Turns out Vindication and Righteous Vengeance can ALSO proc the extra regen.

Now – it’s entirely possible that this is an unintended bug (there are a pile of bugs right now with Judgments and Seals – including one where Seal of Righteousness can double proc off itself). It’s also entirely possible that this is working as intended as a method of Ret Paladin regen – though unlikely, since Heart of the Crusader is so far up in the Ret tree as to be available to most Prot and Holy pallies as well.

So what’s the difference?

I don’t have Heart of the Crusader.

I’m running a 54/17/0 “Bubbledin” spec right now – and as such, I wasn’t seeing the extra regen. And I couldn’t Judge every 6 seconds anyway, but only every 10. As soon as I swapped to my Retribution spec, I magically got more regen from judging – frequently double procs on Judgment of Wisdom.

What does this mean?

Well, it means now that I no longer have 4 piece T8 (since I got The Pants of Awesometacular in 25 man Trial of the Champion), there is a lot less pull to stay with a 54/17/0 spec – right now.  If this is, in fact, a bug, we can expect it to get hotfixed shortly, as they hotfix all paladin problems quickly and often with little actual testing (… but that’s a rant for another day.  moving on).  If it’s NOT a bug, then there’s a little more benefit to the 51/5/15 spec, as it picks up Heart of the Crusader, as well as makes me take another look at the Paladin Tier 9 two piece set bonus.

Why?  Well, the 2-piece set bonus is as follows:

Increases the duration of your Judgments by 10 seconds.

Since this actually increases the duration of the Judgment on the target, that means we have an extra 10 seconds during which a re-cast Judgment can proc Heart of the Crusader, which will then double proc our regen. Is it suddenly awesometacular?  Not really – but it kinda sucks a little less. Maybe.

Anyway – this is all a lot of speculation, but it’s something interesting to try out, especially if you’re still running with the standard 51/5/15 build. Try it and see what your results are. From my experience, it’s a little more sporadic than “every time” – but it’s definitely a good way to stretch our now more limited mana pools after the patch!

(I’ve not yet respecced out of my 54/17/0 build, because I’m stubborn and I like it, but if this particular gem hangs around after today’s patch, it may be time to switch back to a cookie-cutter 51/5/15 build)

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16 Responses to “Seals, Judgments, and Holy Pally Handwaving”

  1. Wow, crazy.

    I’ll have to investigate a little further, because I am not judging Wisdom, but am instead judging Light, at the request of our prot palli who prefers to judge Wisdom himself.

    My parses are still calling all that regen “Seal of Wisdom”, which is very confusing indeed, and I still had “Seal of Wisdom” regen Monday night that was higher than my Illumination mana return.

    Thanks for the investigation.

    By Nahyomi on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  2. I’ve actually been using this Seal + Judgment + Heart (Talent) combo for ages; it’s been a staple of my Tankadin build (Andronikos – L77 Paladin – Moon Guard) since I first assembled it. Odd, that. Speaking from experience, though, Nayohmi is absolutely right. Using these skills in tandem is a sure-fire way to rarely, if ever, run fully out of mana. I would add that another way to constantly keep up your mana regen is to always have (Greater) Blessing of Sanctuary cast on yourself. This spell has kept me well-armed for mana-intensive combat throughout the game.
    .-= Badger´s last blog ..The Role of Roles in RPGs =-.

  3. Also: I’m amazed to find someone else who actually uses the word “awesometacular.” I was beginning to think I was the only one.
    .-= Badger´s last blog ..The Role of Roles in RPGs =-.

  4. @Nahyomi – Doesn’t matter WHAT judgment you’re using – all of them will apply the Heart of the Crusader buff, which is actually what’s giving you the extra regen. And they’ll all say “Seal of Wisdom” – as they’re all proccing Seal of Wisdom – it’s just that the combo is causing double and triple procs!

    Also, having talked with Macmoran some more this morning (thanks Mac) – he’s pretty sure this is a bug, since Judgments are actually /Ranged/ attacks, not melee attacks – and therefore shouldn’t be causing this kind of stacking procs with regen. It’s a new thing in 3.2, though – you were definitely right about that.

  5. Check the patch notes from 3.2:

    “Judgements: Some of these attacks were considered ranged and some melee. They are all now considered melee attacks that can’t be dodged, parried or blocked.”

    That was an intentional change, and it’s that patch note that made me start doing this — prior to 3.2, JoL from 30 yards was definitely treated as ranged and couldn’t procc SoW, which requires a melee attack to procc.

    By Nahyomi on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  6. @Nahyomi – well… then this may just be “Working as Intended”… I can hope right?! (I think I might be respeccing tonight >.>)

  7. Cool! Anything to help with mana regen is welcome. I just hope that if this is not working as intended, Blizzard doesn’t read your blog. I’m going to try this out…

    By Chris on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  8. I will point our holy pallies this way for this info,
    .-= ItanyaBlade´s last blog ..Dorri has a pet =-.

  9. Couple of things from my testing yesterday. Anna was healing an ulduar hard mode at the time and my answers were kinda garbled. Basic summary of the test is as follows:

    My ret gear, running Seal of Wisdom and Judging anything at max judgement range (out of melee range) judging on CD (10 seconds with no talents, 8 with):

    -The act of judging could proc the seal. I was getting 232 mana from that occasionally. This is what I believe is the bug. Seals are only supposed to proc on melee attacks. Currently SoL/SoJ/SoW/SoR are proccing off judgements while SoV and SoC are not. (Curiously, in previous patches, SoC was the only one that did proc off a judgement)
    -Judging in this setup never procced the judgement

    Respec to include heart of the Crusader, no other gear or setup changes:
    -Judging could proc the seal
    -Judging could now proc the judgement. 82 mana I think even if I let the judgement fall off first. My theory is heart of the crusader applies as a secondary effect after the judgement effect and this is proccing the judgement. I dont believe this is a bug.

    Speccing further into ret to pick up vindication and Righteous Vengeance
    -Judging now occasionally double or even tripple procced the judgement depending on what debuffs were applied.

    By Mac on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  10. Urg, I didnt mean to post that just then.

    So, yeah, I believe the bug is in the proccing of the seal from judging. As it stands, as Anna says, a Holy pally with HotC could theoretically get a fair whack of mana back per judge from both the Seal and the singular judgement proc.

    Here’s hoping, bug or no, blizzard decide to keep it, because I always like the active regen model of holy paladins in vanilla (stay in melee range, Seal Wisdom and bonk things) and since the asscleave of BC and later AoE mechanics, healers have had to stand back. At least this adds some fun interactivity and creatively helps with mana regen.

    (oh, please fix SoV, SoC proccing off judgement too, while you’re at it)

    By Mac on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  11. Gawd, one last thing too, casting judgement and applying heart of the crusader (vind/RV/etc) can proc any judgement on the target. If you have another pally judging wisdom while you’re judging light, you can see procs off both.

    I think Im done now. Back to work.

    By Mac on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  12. “The act of judging could proc the seal. I was getting 232 mana from that occasionally. This is what I believe is the bug. Seals are only supposed to proc on melee attacks. Currently SoL/SoJ/SoW/SoR are proccing off judgements while SoV and SoC are not. (Curiously, in previous patches, SoC was the only one that did proc off a judgement)”

    The bug here is that SoV and SoC are not proccing, then, given the patch note stating that all judgements have been turned into melee attacks.

    However, here’s what the patch notes say about SoV:

    “Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage. In addition, the damage-over-time effect is now considered a melee attack instead of a spell attack and the effects from these seals can only be triggered by auto-attacks and Hammer of the Righteous.”

    If I am reading that patch note (plus the one I posted in an earlier comment) correctly, you would not expect these seals to procc off judgements, since they only procc off auto-attacks and HotR. On the other hand, you would expect all other seals to procc off judgements, since the procc off melee attacks, and judgements now count as melee attacks.

    By Nahyomi on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  13. Anna: Where’d you get the 6 second figure for Judgements? I thought 7 seconds was the absolute minimum (with 2/2 Improved Judgements and the 4 piece PvP DPS gear bonus). Is that a typo or am I missing something?

    Mac: Does the Judgements of the Just talent in deep Protection work the same way? In other words, can Protection Paladins can pick up Judgements of the Just, Heart of the Crusader, and Vindication in order to nab triple procs as well?

  14. @Nahyomi.
    Ultimately my bug reasoning is due to the fact Im still in the “Weapon Imbue” camp for Seals. I realise this is not the case anymore. Maybe its simply because I was standing at 10 yards when testing and 10 yards aint melee, dammit 😉

    SoV’s DoT stacking only procs on autoattacks (and hammer of cleave), but the actual seal itself (the up-to 33% weap damage) procs off all melee strikes, except judgement which is a bug if judgements proccing seals isnt.

    SoC? Who knows. Stupid thing keeps getting changed. I suspect in previous patches it was the only one considered a melee attack hence it proccing off a judgement and they mixed it up in 3.2. It’s quite nice on the PTR right now tho.

    Judgetmens of the Just I dont know about. I currently dont have a prot spec (PvP and PvE ret) so I havent had a chance to test it since the additional judgement debuffs proccing the judgements came to light. Now JotJ is its own seperate debuff, my guess would be yes, but I’d need to see it tested to be sure.

    By Mac on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  15. Ten yards ain’t melee in any normal sense of that word, agreed. Think how I feel, standing at 30yards, judging Light, and getting SoW proccs from it! However, it appears to be intended, given the patch note that states that all judgements are now melee.

    Doesn’t mean I don’t think that they will take it away from us, but it does seem to have been done on purpose.

    By Nahyomi on Aug 18, 2009 | Reply
  16. So, I’m having a hard time understanding this correctly so please correct my logic here:

    JoW and SoW both return mana back. JoW returns 2% and SoW returns 4% (proc changes; not 100%) so having SoW and judging JoW has a chance to proc both, right? Because of the 3.2 changes to all judgements being melee attacks, that judgement can proc both JoW and SoW (not sure if they can proc simultaneously)

    So assuming that information is correct, how does this SotC thing work? If that application is proccing either JoW or SoW, then that seems like a bug to me.

    Thanks for any clarify!

    By Det on Sep 9, 2009 | Reply

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